image controls w/o adrenaline board

image controls w/o adrenaline board

Postby rpapa » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:45 am

is it possible to use image controls w/o an adrenaline board?
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image controls w/o adrenaline board

Postby brian.mcdougle@kofax.com » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:54 pm

Hi,

Yes. The product is called AIPE (Adrenaline Image Processing Engine). It provides a disk import capability that can be used to do the image processing provided by the Adrenaline board.

However, it DOES NOT provide any disk import capabilities for VRS.

Hope this helps.

Brian
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image controls w/o adrenaline board

Postby bflorin11 » Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm

Hello,

From what I read it seems that the adrenaline board can do very fast some optimization/correction operations. AIPE should the software version of the adrenaline board ?!
Both AIPE and an adrenaline board could work with ImageControls ?

I saw that there is a great offer of scanners that work with SCSI which means they work at 320Mbps. But I saw that USB 2.0 works at 480 Mbps. Why would I want to use a scanner with SCSI interface + an adrenaline hardware board for this SCSI interface ? Is it not sufficient and faster to use USB 2.0 interface and eventually AIPE ?

Thanks,
Florin
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Imagecontrols w/o adrenaline board

Postby brian.mcdougle@kofax.com » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:11 pm

AIPE is, essentially, a software version of an Adrenaline board. It performs the same basic B&W image cleanup. And, yes, they both work with ImageControls.

Comparing the throughput of SCSI versus USB 2.0 only covers part of the difference. USB is not designed for scanning. It also shares the system memory with other system resources.

An Adrenaline board is designed for scanning. As such its buffers are sized to handle images. In addition, the board is supported and backed by a highly technical support group. If you have a USB scanner, or are using a generic Adaptec SCSI board, the technical support people you may call won't know anything about scanners.

So, yes, while USB has a faster throughput then an Adrenaline SCSI board, the USB interface shares the system resources (including memory and CPU) while the Adrenaline board has its own and can work without interrupting the system CPU until it is ready to transfer an image.

Something to think about.
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Imagecontrols w/o adrenaline board

Postby bflorin11 » Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:01 am

Hello Brian,

thank you for your answer.
anyway what do you think about this post ?

viewtopic.php?t=829

thank you,
Florin
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Imagecontrols w/o adrenaline board

Postby brian.mcdougle@kofax.com » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:26 pm

Florin,

I am not sure what I should be looking for. If you are referring to the fact that the USB throughput is the same as the Adrenaline throughput then that is expected given the throughput of the scanner. As Raymond indicates the throughput matches the rated speed of the scanner. You can't go much faster then that.

As you use faster scanners the Adrenaline can be more of a benefit.

Does this help?
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Imagecontrols w/o adrenaline board

Postby bflorin11 » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:29 am

Hello Brian,

Thank you for your reply. You are right, I haven't read very well the message of that post. What you are saying is that I am going to see better performance when using Adrenaline card at higher scanning speeds (e.g. 50 ppm) ? or event at a higher speed ?
The main drawback would be that the price of the card would drive up the cost higher and also that I would stick with somehow of old technology (SCSI interface) ?

Why is it then that many production scanner have USB interfaces ?

Do you know what OCR engine does Ascent Capture use ? Does it have his own OCR engine ?

It is not very clear why would I want to get the Ascent Capture and not to develop a faster and customized application using ImageControls. Do you have any arguments ?

Thank you,
Florin
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Imagecontrols w/o adrenaline board

Postby brian.mcdougle@kofax.com » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:14 am

Hi Florin,

That is correct, that you should see better performance with SCSI then you would with USB. In particular if the PC is multi-tasking doing other jobs (like OCR or database access).

However, if the system isn't being tasked then USB 2.0 can be comparable to SCSI. And, yes, SCSI is an older technology. But remember that SCSI transfers the data in parallel while USB does it in serial. So SCSI can transfer more in one clock cycle then USB.

Manufacturers are using USB because it is standard on every PC.

Ascent Capture can use a number of OCR engines. It depends on what the customer wants to use.

There are advantages to using either ImageControls or Ascent Capture. With ImageControls you have complete control over the look and feel of the application. But there is more work to create the application and you must purchase the pieces that are not included (like OCR).

With Ascent Capture you have an existing interface so you can get something working quickly. Plus there is a VB-like language built in for customization. In addition, when used with our VRS product, Ascent Capture supports QC Later. This is where the master VRS image is kept around if a challenging image is detected. Then the QC person can clean it up if required before it is passed to the Verification and Validation stages.

So it just depends on what you want to accomplish, the timeframe you have, and the money you have to spend.

I hope this helps.
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Imagecontrols w/o adrenaline board

Postby bflorin11 » Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:22 am

Hello Brian,

Thank you for clarifying this dilemma : USB <-> SCSI.
Just to be very sure : the clock frequency of USB is anyway higher than that of SCSI ?

I don't know yet the timeframe because I am in a pre-study phase. I am interested in a finding a good solution to scan documents and store for later retrieval via an web application. Do you know how much money would cost each of the variants (Ascent Capture or ImageControls) ?

My first worry is that the Ascent Capture would not be enough customizable. Can I use ImageControls in .net ? Can I customize Ascent Capture by using .net ? It does seem a waste of time and energy to learn a new language for that (e.g. SBL).

It does help me very much.
Thank you,
Florin
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Postby rpapa » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:12 am

Keep in mind, that Ascent Capture is built for production scanning.

You can have multiple scan stations all feed into one Ascent server. You can have 1 or more recognition server. Then, you can have multiple stations do the indexing.

If I was looking at production scanning, I'd rather buy one that's already built (like Ascent Capture), than custom build my own. Just my $.02
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Re: Imagecontrols w/o adrenaline board

Postby russell@centuryc.com » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:06 pm

bflorin11 wrote:Can I use ImageControls in .net ? Can I customize Ascent Capture by using .net ? It does seem a waste of time and energy to learn a new language for that (e.g. SBL).


1) I believe so.
2) Yes
3) SBL is a old non-graphic VB. So not so much to learn.

Don't worry about USB/SCSI debate. The bottom line, is how fast does it run? Use
this link as your guide. However, if you need to run higher then 200 dpi, then it gets interesting.
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Re: Imagecontrols w/o adrenaline board

Postby bflorin11 » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:35 am

rpapa wrote:Keep in mind, that Ascent Capture is built for production scanning.

You can have multiple scan stations all feed into one Ascent server. You can have 1 or more recognition server. Then, you can have multiple stations do the indexing.

If I was looking at production scanning, I'd rather buy one that's already built (like Ascent Capture), than custom build my own. Just my $.02


Hello Raymond,

Thank you for the answer. By production scanning you mean dealing with volumes >90 ppm ?

Is it interesting that you can use many scan stations (PC+attached scanner) to send them to an Ascent Server. I was thinking that one would need ACIS or ACS for this. If not then why do this other 2 products do exist ?

I was trying to download a test version of this product but I haven't manage to found it. Does it exist a try-out version ?

A more general question if you know : it seems that Indicius and Xtrata Pro does the same thing ?!

Thank you,
Florin
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Re: Imagecontrols w/o adrenaline board

Postby bflorin11 » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:43 am

russell@centuryc.com wrote:
bflorin11 wrote:Can I use ImageControls in .net ? Can I customize Ascent Capture by using .net ? It does seem a waste of time and energy to learn a new language for that (e.g. SBL).


1) I believe so.
2) Yes
3) SBL is a old non-graphic VB. So not so much to learn.

Don't worry about USB/SCSI debate. The bottom line, is how fast does it run? Use
this link as your guide. However, if you need to run higher then 200 dpi, then it gets interesting.



Hello Russell ,

Thank you for the link and for the answers. The document is very interesting. Why is it that at the simplex speed you have ppm and that at the duplex speed you have ipm ?

I wonder if you used this scanner : Canon DR-9080C. It is stated that it has a SCSI III interface. What speed has this interface ? 320 Mbps ?

I understand that VRS cannot work with back&white and it must use grayscale. How come that in the scanner certification and performance list it is stated that they scan black and white ? Would the speed be lower if the scan was done in grayscale ?

Why does it have 2 columns (Included OEM <-> Professional License) and what they represent ?

The driver stated in the table is the only one with which could be obtained the respective (ppm/ipm) performance ? For example for CANON DR-9080C you could not obtain the 88 ppm with other driver except ISIS ?

Thank you,
Florin
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Re: Imagecontrols w/o adrenaline board

Postby russell@centuryc.com » Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:21 pm

bflorin11 wrote:Is it interesting that you can use many scan stations (PC+attached scanner) to send them to an Ascent Server. I was thinking that one would need ACIS or ACS for this. If not then why do this other 2 products do exist ?


Ascent Capture will work with multiple stations on a local LAN.

ACIS connects stations over a WAN or Internet connection.

ACS is server for you to build your own clients for.

bflorin11 wrote:I was trying to download a test version of this product but I haven't manage to found it. Does it exist a try-out version ?


Yes, but you'll need to find a Kofax reseller.
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Re: Imagecontrols w/o adrenaline board

Postby russell@centuryc.com » Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:42 pm

bflorin11 wrote:Why is it that at the simplex speed you have ppm and that at the duplex speed you have ipm ?


I don't know why it's rated that way.

ppm = pages per minute
ipm = images per minute

simplex mode: ipm = ppm
duplex mode: ipm = 2x ppm (front and back image per sheet of paper)

A good scanner should have about double the ipm in duplex as in simplex. Otherwise something electronic is a bottleneck.

bflorin11 wrote:I wonder if you used this scanner : Canon DR-9080C. It is stated that it has a SCSI III interface. What speed has this interface ? 320 Mbps ?


Personally I'm a BBH guy myself. I've used Canons before, but not that model. I don't know what the speed of the SCSI is. However, if you click the link, the recommended configuration is with the USB.

bflorin11 wrote:I understand that VRS cannot work with back&white and it must use grayscale. How come that in the scanner certification and performance list it is stated that they scan black and white ? Would the speed be lower if the scan was done in grayscale ?


For the tests in that link, the scanner was operating in grayscale mode and VRS was delivering a black and white image to the application. I wouldn't expect it to be slower with a grayscale delivery, but it could be slower for color.


bflorin11 wrote:Why does it have 2 columns (Included OEM <-> Professional License) and what they represent ?


Some scanners come with a VRS license already (OEM). If you want to upgrade to the VRS Professional license, then you'll need to know at that what level you have buy it at. It affects the price.

To give an example, the BBH Truper 3200 comes with VRS Professional. On the other hand, the Canon DR-9080C doesn't and to get VRS Professional, you'd have to buy the Production level. That can significantly add to the cost of the scanner.


bflorin11 wrote:The driver stated in the table is the only one with which could be obtained the respective (ppm/ipm) performance ? For example for CANON DR-9080C you could not obtain the 88 ppm with other driver except ISIS ?


I wouldn't worry about the driver used. For the two scanners mentioned above, VRS is using ISIS to talk to the scanner. Your app will be talking to VRS. I don't see that as an issue, just like SCSI vs USB isn't really an issue. (Although with USB, that's less stuff you have to buy.) It doesn't dictate what your app must use to talk to VRS.
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